| PG: | I am sitting here with Mr. Thom Butts, Mr. Oregon Leather 1997. |
| TB: | Oregon State Leather ’97, yes. |
| PG: | Thank you for sitting down with me today to talk about your experiences. |
| TB: | My pleasure. |
| PG: | And kind of start, what was your experience that year as Mr. Leather? |
| TB: | Long long ago. What was my experience? It was a rush. It was a lot of fun. It was kind of a newfound celebrity, for me at least. I was certainly not new to the leather community. But it seemed to … it seemed that because of the title, a lot of … dozens, hundreds, of people now knew who I was that I had no idea who they were. Yeah. It was a very different time back then, again ’97. We barely had email, long before Facebook and all those social media stuff. So then as back in that aspect, it was very different than title holding nowadays. A lot less hassle you had to worry about, a lot less having to be politically correct and worrying about offending people in some video that someone took of you at the bar suddenly gets shared around. Yeah, none of that stuff. None of that stuff. So in a way it was a lot easier, I think, than some title holders have it nowadays |
| PG: | Okay. And you mentioned it wasn’t your first foray into leather. How did you get into the leather? |
| TB: | How did I get into leather? Kinda through the back door. Hmm. Almost more through biker leather versus BDSM leather. Excuse me, my voice is really raspy. Yeah. So more through the biker leather type of stuff. Portland does not have a leather club in the traditional sense. Like a 15 association or a Hellfire Club or something like that. So a lot of my exposure to the leather community was at Portland Leatherman, which is a great organization, they’re wonderful. But the exposure to leather as … or the BDSM aspect of leather was very minimal. Knew it was there, just wasn’t exposed to it. |
| PG: | And so you mentioned the organization that kind of initially got involved in. |
| TB: | PLM, Portland Leathermen. |
| PG: | Okay. And that’s a separate and distinct organization from Blackout Productions? |
| TB: | Yes. |
| PG: | Which is the organization that holds the titles in Portland. |
| TB: | Correct, correct. Yeah. Blackout Leather was started in spring of ’97, kind of as a reaction to the previous title that was in Portland, which was the Mr. Portland Leather contest. Mr. Portland Leather was owned by one person and he kinda got into a snit, and shall we say took his marbles and went home. Canceled the next contest, the current title holder couldn’t do a step down because there wasn’t any contest to step down at and that kind of drama. That title holder and three or four friends got together and founded Blackout Leather Productions as a community-base, nonprofit, 501(c)3 organization, to own the titles. Just to keep it from being one person’s little playpen. |
| PG: | To avoid the same situation, right. |
| TB: | To avoid that situation. It is not a membership organization, which in a way has been Blackout’s problem in that they don’t have a pool of board members to recruit from. So they’ve always struggled with getting board members and then being relevant and tied in with the rest of the community. My opinion, but. And I’ve spent probably 10 years total on the board in two different stints. As treasurer and as president. |
| PG: | And so since Blackout Productions is kind of the organization that holds the titles and the Portland Leathermen is more of a community based organization, are there other kind of organizations that are in play and that are doing the membership part? |
| TB: | Yes. There are a number of leather organizations in the Portland area. A couple big ones, several small ones, some very informal and they come and go and I can’t keep track of everybody. The biggest one, most recognizable name in the Portland area right now, is Portland Leather Alliance, PLA. Most known for running Kink Fest, currently in their 20-something year, 25th year, or 20th year. Held every spring. Large organization. Yeah. Couldn’t tell you, well over 100 members. It grew out of the NLA Portland chapter, National Leather Association Portland chapter. Drama around that, but NLA Portland got to not be NLA anymore and so they reformulated under PLA, Portland Leather Alliance. |
| PG: | Okay. And you mentioned that you’ve taken leadership roles in the Blackout Productions as the treasurer. Since becoming a title holder, what has your experience with the community been and how are you involved? Briefly summarize the last 20 years. |
| TB: | Summarize the last 20 years. I suppose kind of tying back into a previous question of myself and recollections on my title year, I had a great time during my title year. It was a blast. In retrospect, I was probably not the best title holder out there. And afterwards kind of likened my title year to the Jimmy Carter presidency. |
| PG: | Tell me more about that. |
| TB: | What I mean by that, before I get misconstrued, is that I’ve had more of an impact on the community since being a title holder than during my title year. Jimmy Carter had a mediocre presidency, but the ensuing decades I feel he’s really gone on to make a big impact. |
| PG: | And so what would you say that your impact has been? |
| TB: | Yeah. Knew you were going to ask that question. My impact. Again, apologize for the sinusy stuff. |
| PG: | No worries. |
| TB: | I’m not sure. I think … this sounds a little, what’s the word? Self? |
| PG: | Self-aggrandizing? |
| TB: | Yes, that one. But the role as mentor, yeah. Just … yeah, mentor within the community. Anymore 20 years on, it seems like someone who was active in the leather community in the mid late 90s and is still around. And just being present counts for something anymore. Seems like less and less people from that era are around or still active. So yeah. None of which sounds very accomplishment-y sounding. But yeah. |
| PG: | But one of the questions I was going to ask later on, but skipping ahead, kind of who were your mentors in the community? Kind of as you made the transition from biking leather community into more of kind of the gay leather and into the title holder position. Who helped you? Who was your mentor? |
| TB: | Who was my mentor. Not in to title holding so much, to answer that part of the question. Mentors. Kind of the how to be a title holder, because again, before the internet and all that other resource, I relied a lot on my board. The board of directors of Blackout at the time. Specifically Barry Burns, who was the last Mr. Portland Leather and went on to other things after that. And I don’t remember asking him specific questions of how-to, but more just watching him and modeling my title year kind of after him. You know, try to be more like him. |
| PG: | Kind of following his example. |
| TB: | Yeah. Yeah. had to be a good title. He probably did offer me a lot of good advice at the time, but yeah, nothing specifically sticks. Other mentors in leather post title holding and transitioning more into the BDSM leather, certainly would be top of the list would be my daddy, my late partner Andrew. I’m not sure if he knew how naïve I was at the time in that stuff, but was very patient and a lot of most of my BDSM skills came from him. |
| PG: | And you mentioned one of your great accomplishments is helping mentor people and moving forward, so who have you helped mentee and kind of how has that role affected things? |
| TB: | What impact have I had? Not sure what impact I’ve had. How it’s affected things, hopefully I’ve kept people from doing stupid shit. Either in trying to become a title or during their title year. The no no no no, that’s not a good idea, don’t do that. You know, think of how this is going to play, think of the visuals. Like a politician, you have to pay attention to that stuff now.First part of the question, who have I mentored? |
| PG: | Mm-hmm (affirmative). Or kind of how have you met the people that you’ve mentored and in what role have you mentored them? |
| TB: | How have I met and how has that taken … How I’ve met guys, and it’s usually men that approach me, it’s at the bars or at PLM or … hmm. Generally at a leather social of some sort. They’ve heard I was a title holder, they’re thinking about becoming one. Want to … want me to look over their application, want to know my experience. Get my thoughts or perspectives on being a title holder, if they should run.Some of them, I’m thinking of one past Oregon State specific, lots of questions during his title year of he could do this or if he should do that, or how should he whatever. And just kind of big brother mentoring along the way for them to have a reasonably successful title year. |
| PG: | Okay. And that kind of touches on one of the other questions I wanted to ask. As you’re helping mentor people through their title years, or decide if they’re going to become title holders, what makes a good title holder? Or what makes a good leatherman? |
| TB: | Ooh. Different questions. Like a Venn diagram, there’s a lot of overlap. But one isn’t necessarily the other. What makes a good title holder. Nowadays, I keep coming back to that nowadays thing. What makes a good title holder now is different than 10 years ago versus 20 years ago and 10 years before me.Nowadays they have to be very politically astute. They have to be social media smart. I feel that there’s a big push to kind of devote your entire life to being the title holder. So if you need to take a weekend off for work or are busy because of family or other obligations, you’re somehow a bad title holder. And you’re always in the public eye and yeah. |
| PG: | Kind of like what I’m hearing is that some of the celebrity you had back before social media and the internet and just the panopticon that is social media, that has only kind of progressed. And now it’s much more kind of stepping into an identity as the title holder and kind of one of the key holders in the community. Is that kind of … would you agree with that? |
| TB: | To a degree, yes. Except up until the point where you said the figurehead for the community. At least in Portland, up until that point I agree and a lot of that yes, absolutely. In Portland at least, I see the Portland leather community as being very fractious. And I’ve heard that a lot of other communities are similar. So there is no one figurehead for the community. Oregon sashed the new four title holders last August, and so in the last … in my head, five months? |
| PG: | Mm-hmm (affirmative). |
| TB: | I think I’ve only seen one of them out. The other three, our social circles have not overlapped. And I don’t go out every weekend, I’m not at every single leather event. And there are a lot of leather events out there to be at. But in five months, I’ve not seen any of them. Well, except for the one. Portland Leathermen, its name is predominantly men, but not exclusively. The last couple male title holders have never come to that. Yeah. So I would assume that they are representing the community somewhere, but- |
| PG: | Not in the same groups that you are. |
| TB: | Yeah, not in the same social circles where I am. So is there a leather figurehead? Is there a leather leader, a leader, of the community? Maybe. Is it the title holder? Not necessarily. Which goes further away from your question, but then leads into a different question of is our leather title holders relevant? And I don’t really know the answer to that, before you ask. |
| PG: | Before we jump into that- |
| TB: | Yes, point me back to somewhere. |
| PG: | Can we talk about what makes a good leatherman? |
| TB: | What makes a good leatherman? There are probably 5000 different answers for that. For me, and I would like to think a lot of guys, a lot of what makes a good leatherman kinda runs down the list of the Boy Scout motto or oath, or whichever that was. Loyal, trustworthy, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful. All of that stuff. I think honest and trustworthy are probably paramount and should be. Should be on most if not everybody’s list. If you’re in a BDSM scene with someone, you want them to be honest, you want to trust them. To trust your limits, their limits, trust that they know what they’re doing. ::coughs:: Excuse me. Honest enough they’re not going to steal your stuff, tie you up and walk way. All that stuff. So I think probably top two right there. But a lot of other qualities are appreciated. |
| PG: | And so what are some of the most memorable or most important experiences that you would say kind of shaped you as a leatherman? |
| TB: | Experiences that shaped me as a leatherman. Sorry, stopping to pause and reminisce and handful of smaller moments that kind of brought me to where I am. Probably one of the early ones was getting the title, earning the title. I didn’t realize probably even then how big of an impact and how much of a shift that would make in my life and the trajectory of it. But in many ways, that put me where I am right now. It was a small gesture at the time, but it meant a lot, is that I was gifted a cover during my title year. I know some people ascribe a lot of weight and meaning to being gifted leather, particularly a cover. There are ceremonies around it, the covering ceremony and all that stuff. This was none of that. It was a good friend of mine and actually within a year or two or another Oregon State leather title holder. He had a spare master’s cap. I don’t believe it was his, it could’ve been like a late partner or maybe it was his and it was just didn’t want it, but gave it to me and didn’t want it back type of here, wear this, looks good on you. That kind of unceremonial. But it did look good on me and that was one of my looks, trademarks if you will. |
| Going to and competing at IML, International Mr. Leather. That I think opened my eyes to how woefully unprepared I was in the world of BDSM leather. But it also opened me up to the possibilities of what there is. And this brave new world out there of BDSM and all of the fun that can be had with. And then I think finally my time with my daddy and my late partner Andrew. The five-six years with him galvanized me as a once and forever leatherman. I hate the term Old Guard, just because it’s thrown around and bandied around and it’s … yeah. But under Andrew’s guidance kind of became that Old Guard style of leatherman. And that fits me. It suits me. My personality and what I want to be and how I want to be regarded. Even if it’s not appreciated by some of the current leather community. Yeah. Did that answer your question? I rambled on a lot. | |
| PG: | I think so, I enjoy it. |
| TB: | I tend to ramble on a lot but I … yeah. Please feel free to pull me back to your question. |
| PG: | The great thing is you’re touching on a lot of topics that I want to talk about. |
| TB: | Good. |
| PG: | And so … yeah. Just following that vein, talking about Old Guard, it is one of the things that sort of held up as like oh, there’s the Old Guard. And depending on who’s talking about, it’s either what was good about leather and what we should get back to, or sometimes it seems like it’s portrayed as the thing that is holding us back. And so that’s more of an identity that you feel sort of solid in. And so what does the old guard mean to you? |
| TB: | What does it mean to me? To me it’s … also, sorry. Digression. Just realize that I sort of self-define myself as … that was redundant. Self-defined as old guard leather. I don’t know as I’ve ever really identified that way before. Well, I’ve never … I identify as but I’ve never self-identified, I’ve never known myself that. I just am, as opposed to being a Type A or a Type B or a Type C. Interesting. So old guard leather. Probably best typified by the Etienne and Tom of Finland drawings, as far as a look. I think, may well be my own projections, but I think that’s also an expectation of having a reasonable skill set in BDSM, or some of the aspects of BDSM. You may not be into flogging, but you know your ropes. Or you may like this and not that. There are some aspects of some BDSM, you know some of it. I think there’s probably an expectation of … maybe not necessarily. I was going to say some expectation of having or being familiar with a motorcycle, but that’s probably my own projection. Being into leather as more than just a fashion sense. |
| PG: | What do you mean by that? |
| TB: | And what do I mean by that? Yeah. I see how you are. That leather is not just a different set of drag to put on for this weekend and not that weekend. That leather is somehow part of you. Yeah. That it’s … yeah. It’s part of you. It’s not something that you can change or … what do I want to say? Yeah, I’m not sure how I do want to say it. But yeah. There’s a leather ideal or philosophy, I know you’re probably going to ask me what that is. That … yeah. I’m really getting myself in deep here. Get me back out of here. |
| PG: | And I mean so one of the things that … there’s kind of a skillset. The leather community is part of the greater kink community. And what I’m hearing you say is that part of that is also kind of a classic aesthetic that kind of came out of the Tom of Finland drawings. And you’ve mentioned previously that sort of the Boy Scout code, honest, loyalty, preparedness, and just kind of I would say non maleficence and beneficence as sort of values of a good leatherman. Kind of an ingraining of those values, is that what you’re kind of talking about? Or is it something else exactly? |
| TB: | Yes, to a degree. I think it was more … alluding to more of a transitory interest in leather, that it’s more of a fashion sense. You know, if you go out on a Friday night in leather, it’s like ooh I got a harness on, I’m a leatherman. No, you’re wearing a harness. That doesn’t mean that you’re necessarily a leatherman. |
| PG: | That kind of more the deeper commitment to kind of the culture, the community, and the aesthetics. And the practices. |
| TB: | Yes. And I think you hit on it there what I was trying to say, is the culture, the leather culture. Yeah, culture and practice probably two good words there. |
| PG: | All right. |
| TB: | Can we pause for a sec? I’m going to get some more water and maybe clear my throat a little bit more. |
| PG: | Yes. |
| PG: | And we are back. So before the break, you were talking a little bit about the combination of aesthetics, skill,s and commitment to the culture, and at the same time you previously talked about some fractiousness within the community. And so, what would you describe the difference between the community and the culture? Small, simple question. |
| TB: | One more time, the difference between community and culture? |
| PG: | Yeah, the leather culture with the commitment to culture as maybe, the two letter culture and then the fractiousness within the community and the interplay between, the difference between what is community and what is culture? |
| TB: | Kind of an age old question. |
| PG: | Just small. |
| TB: | The age old question, sum it up in four words or less, thanks. Culture … the culture is changing and that’s the interplay with the old guard, with the new guard, with the new vogue guard or whatever it is now. I think it’s the transition, if that’s the right word, from a lot of the gay leather identity being gay transitioning into queer. And all the other sexual identities that are out there and that people identify with nowadays. The community is … I think the community is shrinking in that’s it’s sub-dividing into a bunch of little different communities, each identifying with themselves and their own likes, beliefs, traditions. And not wanting to be part of the bigger community. I mentioned that there’s a lot of different leather organizations in the Portland area. Part of that is because someone didn’t like someone else and they were all started their own group with just their friends doing it their way. |
| PG: | Mm-hmm (affirmative). |
| TB: | So, to tie it into a bigger community, is fraught with peril because in a way they don’t want to be part of the bigger community because they’re their community, they’re different, they’re special, you know everyone gets a car type of mentality. And I was just reading something online the other day that there’s, I don’t know if there’s a push or just this one person’s opinion that we need to, as the larger LBGTQQI etc community, do just call it Q or call it all Queer. And I agree that the alphabet of different identities is cumbersome and unwieldy and having one letter is the natural evolution or something and like, “Well yeah, but personally Isaac, I don’t identify with queer. I’m not queer I’m gay.” |
| PG: | Mm-hmm (affirmative). |
| TB: | And I think the same thing’s happened with, or an equivalent maybe, with the gay leather culture, or the leather culture in general is that it’s fractured into enough smaller, different groups each with their unique properties and maybe not even that unique among some of them that they aren’t, in a way, one big community. So then to try to describe that to a particular culture, there’s similarities but there’s I don’t know … I don’t know. Grumpy old men syndrome, you know everything’s changing so much and nothing’s the way it used to be. And honestly, I don’t know what to make of it. I don’t necessarily see that as a bad thing, I don’t like some of it, the direction it’s heading, but no one’s gonna listen to me at this point, so there it is. |
| PG: | Which kind of goes into my next question; what are some of, given our current political moment with some of the things that are happening in online communities with censorship and the greater American moment of, the increase in conservatism and balancing that with also the greater individualization of identity, what are some of the challenges that are facing leather culture/leather community? |
| TB: | I think the biggest challenge of the leather community now is to, I’ll say complete but I don’t know if there’s ever going to be a completion, but to complete the metamorphosis into the whatever it’s gonna be next without losing some of the essence of what leather used to be. Leather is changing and it always has, every decade or less sometimes, the new kids have redefined leather for them. I get that, but I think there’s been some constant threads and I, in a way, fear that those are going to be lost in the next iteration or two. |
| PG: | Mm-hmm (affirmative). And maybe the obvious question … |
| TB: | I remember those. |
| PG: | … but what are some of those constant threads? |
| TB: | Hearkening back to how I was describing what Old Guard leather is, is that the ideal that leather is not just a fashion statement but a way of life. That there’s a leather mentality and a leather approach to life, the honestly and integrity part … the idea that, and I know not everyone can, but the idea that you can have your own play space and even if its a temporary reprieve, even if it’s play space is packed up in a bag when you’re not using it but to have your own set of toys and even if that’s just making something that works instead of starting a GoFundMe page to go buy the perfect flogger, you know, make something out of something you can afford and … not waiting for … how do I want to say. Not letting your particular budget problems be a barrier to being part of the leather scene. If you’re part of the leather scene, you are. And you’ll have some play equipment, if not the prettiest, it still works. You can still play and not letting money be a barrier to whatever you need to have or waiting for someone to give you leather instead of just going out and buying something. And I know that is contrary to Old Guard philosophy of never buying your own and only being gifted hand me down stuff. I’m more practical than that, if you need a new vest or a new coat, go buy one. Sorry, I wandered way off your question. Pull me back in. |
| PG: | So what it sounds like I’m hearing you say is the … kind of while things are in transition one of the criticisms that I’ve frequently heard of Folsom Street Fair is that in that is a city wide event at this point, some people say that it’s for tourists and that you can buy a harness, throw it on and you’re a leather man for the weekend. |
| TB: | Woohoo. |
| PG: | But then balancing that with saying, “oh, there’s an ability to buy the aesthetic”, but then also not necessarily saying, “it doesn’t have to be the prettiest.”It is not the just the aesthetic; it is actually the practice of the kinds and sexuality. It’s not just a weekend event. |
| TB: | Or a weekday or a one day event once a year. Yes, yes. I’ve had a guy approach me at an event, are you familiar with Last Wednesgay. |
| PG: | Mm-hmm (affirmative). |
| TB: | Yeah. Had a guy approach me at that, saw me there and of course I was in more business drag. Knew that I was a former title holder, knew that I was a leather man and wanted to be mentored and yeah. The full tour of the dungeon, fully immersed into my dungeon. Didn’t have a stick of leather on, I’m not even sure if my … probably had cheap shoes all the time and they weren’t even leather. Not any of the traditional leather garb but they knew I was a leather man. And yeah, so it’s not necessarily what you wear, it’s what you are. And you don’t have to have the right leather or the right brand of leather or the pretty toys or the butt plugs from Squarepeg or whatever to be able to have a dungeon space or a play space of some sort and be able to do something. |
| PG: | So transition a little bit away from community and more into the BDSM conversation: what are your kinks? What are the things you feel you are proficient? You mentioned, what’s in your tool bag when it comes to this? |
| TB: | What is in my tool bag? I usually answer this question by saying, “Oh, you know, the usual” and then list them off knowing that my usual is, is probably some overlap but not necessarily a lot of overlap with a lot of other people’s kinks, but yeah. It’s what seems normal to me so therefore it’s the normal, it’s what everyone is into. I’ve probably leading off the list, is probably got to be fisting. I have a whole lot of fun with that. I enjoy it and the guys that I play with seem to enjoy it as well. So that’s probably top of my kink list. Beyond that, flogging, bondage, electro, rope play, hot wax, mummification, I don’t do a lot of sensory deprivation stuff. It’s a head trip for the sub, for the bottom but it doesn’t do anything for me, yeah I can blindfold you and tie you up and ignore you for a couple hours and, I don’t know, go bake a cake … whatever, I get nothing out of this, why am I doing it? |
| PG: | Yeah. |
| TB: | But, yeah, so rope work again, I think credit my boy scout experience for that. Flogging … so, rope work, bondage, flogging, electro, fisting and of course, oh yeah, fucking. Fucking is fun. Probably on a lot of people’s kink list and probably a lot of people wouldn’t define it necessarily as a kink, but could be, why not? |
| PG: | And it’s enjoyable. |
| TB: | And it’s fun, yes. |
| PG: | All right. And so it sounded like fisting, bondage and rope work and kind of electro were some of the big ones that you identified. |
| TB: | And flogging yeah. |
| PG: | And flogging. Is there a similar theme, what is it that you get from those experiences? |
| TB: | What do I get out of it? Part of the is the sadistically when my bottom or sub, they’re eyes roll back into their head with pleasure mixed with pain and they’re having this full body orgasm of pleasure and I’m just playing and having fun. Getting to unleash my inner sadist and I have fun watching them have fun, if that makes sense. |
| PG: | Yeah. Getting pleasure from someone else having pleasure. |
| TB: | Yeah, yeah. Almost like a voyeuristic thing but it’s more first person voyeurism which is not really what voyeurism means but you see kind of what I’m getting at. |
| PG: | Excellent. So you mentioned full body orgasm and kind of that rolling back into the head. How crucial do you think those intense physical experiences are to BDSM and leather sex and … |
| TB: | How critical? I’m not sure how to answer that. I want to say I think certainly for me that’s kind of the goal, the objective. |
| PG: | Mm-hmm (affirmative). |
| TB: | If not to have the full body orgasm but to get close to that, to have that out of body experience to me that’s when BDSM is good. That’s when the bottom knows that the top is doing their job or when the top knows that the bottom is really there and enjoying himself, that’s when all the stars align, that’s it. But that’s also my definition of BDSM work and how another master is going to do their scene may have a different objective, so I don’t want to pee on their scene, but for me that’s kind of what it’s about. |
| PG: | Mm-hmm (affirmative). And so one of the things you mentioned was that sadistic joy in being able to see that person go to that space. |
| TB: | Mm-hmm (affirmative). |
| PG: | And obviously consent and I think one of the thing’s that interesting is the talk about honesty and trustworthiness as those are ideals of leather men, those ideals are actually supporting the ability to go to that space. |
| TB: | Yes. |
| PG: | Any thoughts on that? |
| TB: | Completely agree. Yeah. Next? Yes. It’s much harder to get to what I call that conclusion of that transformation if you have any doubts or don’t know well the top or can’t fully trust. You can’t, you just can’t get there I don’t think. And when I’ve played with newer guys for the first time, newer to the BDSM scene and my first time playing with them, like the guy I met at Last Wednesgay: our first play scene, we didn’t get to intense. He’s a very eager bottom, he wants to learn, he wants to know, he wants all of it and we talked, we met for coffee ahead of time before we even played. But he doesn’t know me very well, I would like to think he trust me but that sort of implicit trust versus ‘yes he really would trust me to take him where he doesn’t think he wants to go yet’. |
| So our first scene or two, I don’t push the envelope too far just because that trust hasn’t really been established yet. Once it is, and if it’s the first time I’ve played with a person but they’re not new to the scene, if they’re an experienced player hopefully my reputation is good enough or they have an innate sense of me that they can trust based on the circumstance where they can let go and trust me to take them someplace. | |
| PG: | Mm-hmm (affirmative). |
| TB: | Mentally, not physically of course. Kidnapping, bad, no. |
| PG: | In most scenarios. |
| TB: | In most scenarios, unless that’s part of the negotiated scene. But yeah … So yes, yes. I agree. |
| PG: | Okay. And then similarly touching on trust and honesty and also going into the different vein; one of the quotes that stuck out in reading leather folk, one of the lines was, “The men were hard. The sex was hard. The drugs were hard.” And kind of the gay men’s perchance or tendency to use substances and the existence of chem sex, what has been your experience with substance use and play? Would you like to wade into those waters? |
| TB: | I’ll dip my toe in there, yes. My experience with that is extremely limited. Until about a year and a half ago, when I had my first cigar I’d never smoked anything; cigarettes, pot, anything, still have never had pot or really any other non-prescription type of drug. For several reasons, never got into the chem side of stuff, the drug side of stuff, glad I didn’t. So yeah, so that’s kind of where I’m coming from in my quick little monologue here coming out. Yeah, I haven’t really been exposed to that, generally … and because I haven’t been exposed can be fairly ignorant about when someone is high on something. I don’t really recognize the signs necessarily because it’s not part of my experience. I don’t recognize that stuff, yeah all of that. |
| Played with a guy in New York, about a week ago, Sunday – a week ago today. had amazing, I actually played with him on Saturday and he enjoyed, no Friday night and then enjoyed himself enough that he wanted to have another play session on Saturday. I was like, “Sure, come on over. You were fun too. “He messaged afterwards that he had a great time and that was the first time he’d fucked sober. And he had, again my own ignorance, he said the Candyman just made a delivery, he had T and one other initial with him in his bag that he didn’t even get to try, like “I don’t know what that is. But I’m glad you didn’t because …. Yeah, I’m that ignorant on all that, Suzy Snowflake and all. I’ve had guys that have been wanting to get fisted but they need to get high first. I had assumed on like marijuana or pot I guess but after last weekend they may have meant something stronger than just pot for their high. And I kind of an issue with that. Fisting in particularly, I’ll say an invasive procedure … and based on the nature of the action, there’s so much potential for damage. If a top is not in their full mind and that can include a lot of alcohol too. If the bottom isn’t of full mind, they don’t know what … the top doesn’t know what they’re doing and can unintentionally hurt and the bottom doesn’t really realize that there’s something wrong with their own body. With some of the other BDSM stuff, probably not as big of a deal to be high. For the bottom at least, for the … seriously for the top, personal opinion, they should be fairly sober because the bottom’s trusting them. | |
| PG: | And there’s the potential for harm. |
| TB: | And the potential for harm. Flog a kidney too hard, that’s not good. Hot wax scene, you get distracted and the candle falls over and you burn up your house and the poor bottom is still tied up in the basement as you run out and there’s just all sorts of bad things that could go wrong. For some guys that’s fine and it works for them, for me I don’t like a lot of certainly chem sex and a lot of artificial stimulants. I know a lot of guys use poppers, particularly in fisting, poppers generally don’t do much for me. So if they want them fine, “No, don’t bother giving me a sniff. I don’t care.” Focus on my job and you inhale all you want. You know? |
| PG: | Hmm. |
| TB: | So that’s my take on the chem sex part of it. You’re right, that is a quote I’ve heard also and I know that’s a part of the scene. But it’s a part of the scene that I generally stay away from and don’t get too involved in. |
| PG: | I see. |
| TB: | How’s that for a long answer? |
| PG: | That is fantastic. |
| TB: | But my long answer stayed fairly on point, so unlike some of your previous questions. |
| PG: | And so one thought that I was kind of having … kind of the going back a little bit to community and the … some of the values of a leather man really coming out of the sexuality, that need for trust and honesty and the transcendental sexual experience. So I’m really being supported, applying of that and kind of the ability for that safe space and really ecstatic space to bond people together. And thinking of similarly the fractiousness in the community of the guy who said, “Hey, I’m offended and I’m gonna take my toys away” and the emergence of Blackout Leather Productions and kind of the fractiousness of the community. Is play one of the things that really holds this community together? And holds the subgroups in this community together? |
| TB: | Interesting question. Interesting question … I think that play, BDSM play, if not holding the community together is certainly a common thread within the community. |
| PG: | Mm-hmm (affirmative). |
| TB: | Some people prefer to play in their own dungeons, some people prefer to play only in male spaces or female spaces or pan spaces or in groups or in pairs or however they want. And kind of rail against the other groups that want something different. If they want a pan space instead of an all-male space and yes, that’s fine if you want an all-male space but there’s a couple women that want to watch, well no because it’s an all-male space. ‘Well, we just want to watch’, ‘well no, it upsets the chi of the room. It’s a different energy.’ But I think as far as the common thread, they’re still playing. They’re still playing BDSM stuff, they’re doing something if not together, at the same time at opposite ends of the city. So, yeah that well could be one way that the community has some commonality. |
| PG: | You’ve survived my inquisition. Thank you so much. Any other thoughts, words of wisdom that you’d like to pass on about anything that we’ve talked about? |
| TB: | Thoughts or words of wisdom … I don’t think so. Yeah. |
| PG: | All right. Excellent, and thank you |