Graylin Thornton – International Mr. Drummer 1993

PG:	All right. I am here with Thornton Graylin, Mr. …
GT:	Graylin Thornton.
PG:	My apologies. Mr. International Drummer Leather 1993? Nope?
GT:	Nope. International Mr. Drummer 1993.
PG:	Okay, my apologies.
GT:	That’s okay.
PG:	So thank you for joining me and sitting down with me. Kind of getting started off, how did you get into the leather community?
GT:	Well, I got into the leather community many years ago in the ’80s. I was part of a leather club in San Jose called SLUGs, South Bay Leather Uniform Group. It founded in ’86. I was one of the founding members of that club. I was 26 years old and sort of hit the ground running, found what I liked in leather, masculinity, sex, rough sex, BDSM. I wanted to explore all aspects of sexuality in BDSM. So I just jumped right in.
PG:	Okay. So as a founding member of that club, tell me a little bit about that experience and what that was like.
GT:	Well, there was a group forming in San Jose at the time of guys who were just interested in leather. We were going to San Francisco, as most people do from the Bay area, every weekend, but we had a couple of bars in San Jose. So we decided to start patronizing our bars there. I became manager of bar, which was called Greg’s, or Greg’s Ballroom, originally called The Heat, but we changed it. My best friend at the time, David Carranza, opened a store upstairs called Leather Masters. So we had the bar downstairs and Leather Masters upstairs. So we just started this whole leather culture happening down in San Jose, and it spread. It basically became the basis for all leather in the South Bay and the peninsula outside of San Francisco.
PG:	Excellent. What brought you to be in Mr. Drummer?
GT:	Wow. That was a long road. I had been volunteering producing the leather events in San Jose. That was my job in the club, I was the event producer. Part of my duties was to go to San Francisco and work with Alan Selby, who then was the producer of San Francisco Leather Daddy and Daddy Boy Contest. He’s also known as the Mayor of Folsom Street. So each weekend, I would come here and I would work with Alan. After about six years of doing that, I decided to run for a title, Mr. Santa Clara County Leather. I was second runner up in that, which qualified me to go to the Drummer contest. So I competed in northern California Mr. Drummer. I won that. Then I competed at Internationalist at Mr. Drummer and won that. That was in ’93.
PG:	The Mr. Drummer title, was that based in … it’s a European based title?
GT:	The owners of Drummer Magazine were in Europe in the Netherlands at that time, but the company was based here in San Francisco. Drummer Magazine was out of San Francisco. The Drummer title was part of Drummer Magazine at that time, and basically represented that magazine and the kinks within that magazine. So when you became Mr. Drummer, you wrote for the magazine, you did the cover for the magazine, you posed for the magazine, you traveled with the magazine. So the title and the magazine were wrapped up together.
PG:	So for the full year, kind of featured author and creator for the magazine?
GT:	Absolutely. I spent every day off either in the Drummer offices, or traveling with the Drummer staff, going to various events, staying in the Drummer booth. Everything that Drummer did that year, I did.
PG:	Excellent. Since that year, what has your involvement in the leather community looked like and changed?
GT:	Well, since that year, that was back in ’93, I basically just kept going. After my title year, I became producer of the northern California contest. Shortly after that, I moved to souther California and I started producing that contest. Then the contest changed to LeatherSIR, Leatherboy. I became involved in that organization. But still, my heart was more locally, so I was producing the San Diego Mr. Leather contest. I extended that to a two week contest. Basically, I just kept going ever since. That’s kind of how I learned, because Alan Selby was one of those people who kept going until he couldn’t go anymore. Also, Mister Marcus, Tony DeBlase, all these people were people that I knew at a very young age, and I did what they did, which was just to keep contributing to your community. That was very important to them and it’s important to me.
PG:	Excellent. So I guess if I’m reading this correctly, you’re the head of the local ONYX chapter in San Francisco?
GT:	I’m a member of the local ONYX chapter. I’m not head, I’m just the oldest, so I act like I’m the head. But I’m just … I’m really a member. I’m the event producer for that organization. So we have a monthly bar night, we do a lot of traveling. So that’s my job, is to make sure all of that happens.
PG:	So basically, it sounds like from the very beginning in event production and making the space for leather events to happen and just carried that from locally, but all over California, it sounds like
GT:	Well, pretty much, because back in the early days, or what I call, “back in the day,” in the ’90s, in the early ’90s especially, that’s what we did as leather people is we produced events because we had to raise money for our charities. At that point in time, it was the AIDS Emergency Fund, which was a very small nonprofit at the time. It was the pet charity of pretty much all the Leather Men in California. So everything we did fed into that charity. So as time went on, we spread our funds around, but we produced events weekly because we had to. It wasn’t something that we wanted to do. We had to, because we had to fund our own charities.
PG:	What did those early events look like?
GT:	The early events were a lot more fun than today’s events. Not to slight today’s events, but the Bare Chest Calendar, which at the time was the Eagle Bare Chest Calendar, was created directly to fund the AIDS Emergency Fund. It was the 12 hottest guys that you got each week. So everyone went to that, because you wanted to see who the 12 hottest guys were going to be. Our events, we had formal dances, we had what Daddy Philip Turner called Leather Extravaganza, which was a big leather blowout. So we had events from penny collections to big ball dances. The Phoenix Uniform Club used to put on a huge ball and that was a lot of fun. So all of our events were centered around fun and not really fundraising. The fundraising happened as part of it being a great and fun event, unlike today where the fundraising is the goal and fun is secondary. I personally would like to see that switched back around, but that’s the way it rolls today.
PG:	It sounds like just really wide diversity of events and kind of at an amazing pace of putting on big events on a weekly basis.
GT:	Definitely. We all went to all of the events, because that’s where you saw everyone. It really was a huge family of people. We all knew each other. Even when it came time to run for the contest, like Mr. San Francisco Leather or Mr. San Jose Leather, all of the contestants were people that you had seen over the years. So no one could walk into a contest and be unknown and get on that stage, because people would say, “Well, who the hell are you?” So we all knew everyone for years and years and years, and we interacted on a weekly basis. So that made it a lot of fun, because you saw the same people all the time, two or three times a week. We were all back there just having a really good time.
PG:	Excellent. These days, what events are you excited about? What keeps you involved in the community?
GT:	These days, what am I excited about? Very few things, unfortunately. I tend to like events where there’s more play and action and BDSM and skin and sex and all of those things that we had in the late ’80s and early ’90s. Even in the darkest days, we kept our play and our fun center. Those are the events that I like today. I go to other events to be supportive, but do I want to be there? Usually not. I would much rather be some place with my friends having a good time and enjoying the BDSM aspect of leather.
PG:	Excellent. So more of just showing up and participating because you’re invested in this community, but still missing the fun ribald sexual elements of it.
GT:	Oh, absolutely. I was at an event a couple of weeks ago and everything was happening, but still I tend to congregate with the people who are more like me, the people who want to be sexual, who want to play, and have that kind of an experience. I’m not much of a stand around title holder be seen kind of guy. Not to slam those guys … okay, maybe to slam them a little bit. But I tend to like the BDSM aspect of the community much more so than the, “I wear leather and therefore I’m a Leather Man,” part of the community.
PG:	You wear leather because it’s one of the things that precipitates the enjoying of the sexual experience.
GT:	Oh, absolutely, absolutely. The thing about being a Leather Man or a kinky man is the men that I know are that way in and out of leather. So I could walk into a bar and see someone I know who’s not even in leather, and sometimes I’m not in leather, but we still have that energy. So we don’t have to even be in leather to have that energy and to have that camaraderie and to play that way.
PG:	So in your mind, what makes someone leather folk?
GT:	What makes them leather folk? That’s a really interesting question. Again, this is from my mind. I equate leather, BDSM, kink as the same thing, so if you don’t have the BDSM kink aspect of it, then you’re not leather folk as far as I’m concerned. That’s the basis of leather for me. I don’t care if you wear it, I don’t care if you look good in it. None of those things really matter, it’s the kink that you have to have. You really need a lot of education and experience with that. It took me a couple of years before I was even comfortable wearing leather, because I didn’t feel I deserved it. Because back in my day, you didn’t just walk into Mr. S and buy your vest or buy a pair of pants. My very first vest, which I still have, I got because I was working in an auction, and someone in the audience bought it for me. I believe that when you start out, you need to earn those things. I don’t mean the way people look at it now, like earning it from your sir or whatever, but you have to work your way into it. It’s not a starting point. Leather is not where you start off, just like titles are not where you start off. It’s where you end up. So leather folk, to me, have the experience already before they get to that point.
PG:	To really do kink BDSM play well, it’s a skill. It needs to be developed. Just sort of like, “Oh, I’m just going to pick up a flogger and strike some people,” you can hurt someone.
GT:	Oh, absolutely. I am a firm believer in … and there are exceptions to the rule, but I am a firm believer that before you pick up a flogger, a whip, a paddle, some duct tape, anything at all, you need to have had that experience yourself. So you need to have been flogged, and not just by one person. You need to know what it’s like to be flogged poorly and you need to know what it’s like to be flogged well. You need to have all of those experiences under your belt before you can try those things with other people. Like I said, there are exceptions, but those exceptions are rare. I won’t play with anyone who has not had those experiences already.
PG:	Which leads into one of my other questions, who have been your mentors in this process?
GT:	Wow, that’s … who’ve been my mentors? That’s a tough question, because different people have played different roles in my life. Some of those people are no longer with us. I’ve learned certain things. I learned the whole community aspect of it probably from Alan Selby and Mister Marcus and Daddy Philip Turner, because they were very focused on that fundraising, community time, because that was the late ’80s and early ’90s. But when it came to play, Tony DeBlase actually gave me the best advice. This was right after I won Mr. Drummer. He said, “Play with the best people you can. Don’t worry about what they look like, any of that, play with the best.” So I went out and I found people who I thought were the best at bondage and I played with them, one being a woman, Midori. I found the people who I felt were best at single tail, I found the people who I felt were best at mind fucking. Those are the people I played with. They’re the ones I learned from. So they were really my mentors. I think I’ve learned from the best. I think that that’s the advice I give young people today. They don’t always follow it, but that is my advice. Always find out who the best is, and that’s the person you play with.
PG:	Any advice on how to find the best?
GT:	You ask. There’s so many people …and you ask the older people. There are so many people right here in San Francisco who’ve been around for years, and people don’t even know they’re here. But if you ask someone, “Who’s good at bondage? Who’s good at single tailing?” Someone is going to know. So you just have to ask, and you have to network, and you have to be in the right place at the right time with the right people. Just standing up at Folsom Street is not going to get you anyplace. But you start asking the people who are around, and they’ll point you in the right direction. People love giving advice, and people love it when younger people are seeking out mentors and the best people that they can find.
PG:	I guess the corollary to who’ve been your mentors, how have you kind of mentored people as the up and coming generations?
GT:	You know, the up and coming generations have sort of found me in the last year or so, because only recently have I realized that I’m old. Even now … I have a boy, he’s 46, and he’s been with me for eight years, and going to events like Inferno and The 15 Association and Gear Up. These are all play things that I take him to. He also likes the contests, because he likes the spectacle of that. But I take him to events where he will play and meet older people who have been around and have experiences. That being said, I now have a 23 year old, who will be 24 tomorrow, who’s following me around. I tell him the exact same thing, “Go and find people who are the best. Find those people who have been around for a while.” At 24, I can actually say he has more experience than most of the guys who I know in the scene right now. That guy, he’s actually planning his own play party right now. You don’t get that from many 23, 24 year olds. So he’s advanced. He’s gotten advanced because he has asked questions and he’s met the right people. He’s read books. I gave him a list of eight books to read, and these are heavy duty books. He read all eight in about three months.
PG:	I have to ask, what were the books?
GT:	Leather Folk was one of them. The Topping book and the Bottoming book. Slave Craft. Mandingo, which shocks everyone. I gave him Midori’s book only because I’m in it. What else did I have him read? Ties That Bind. I can’t remember the others. But yeah, there were a total of eight. Then afterwards … Oh, the Story of O I had him read. Then afterwards, we watched Mandingo the movie and talked about it. Then with most of the authors who are still alive, I had him contact those authors to discuss their books with him. So he’s quite educated at this point.
PG:	It sounds like he’s been doing his homework.
GT:	Oh yeah.
PG:	At this point, do you consider yourself part of the old guard?
GT:	You know, I don’t really know what the old guard and new guard stand for. It sort of reminds me of that TV show that I’ve been watching now, the American Gods show where the old gods and the new gods battling it out for control. I don’t know if I see it that way. I just am an older guy, and I learned with very strict rules. For instance, when I was in my late 20s and going to the Eagle, no one ever went to the Eagle on a Sunday, not in leather. It just wasn’t done. In fact, you couldn’t go in there if you had on leather and not have on boots. So that’s how I learned.
	As I started off, I was considered one of the boys of San Francisco. There were only about 10 or 12 of us who were actually the boys of San Francisco. We had a dress code. We could wear cutoff shorts or leather shorts. Boots. We could wear those white athletic socks. They had to be two inches above our boots and the stripes had to be either blue, red, or yellow. We could wear vests, and we could wear tank tops and t-shirts. That was it. There was no mixing of the rubber, which I have nothing against. But there was no definitely no color schemes, there was no matching, there was no heels, there was no femininity … what is that word, femininity? There was no … I can’t think of the word. How would you put it?
PG:	Femininity?
GT:	Femininity. There was none of that. It was fairly strict. You just didn’t do those things then. Now there’s this self expression. Leather then … your self expression came from your actions, that came from your play. That’s how you expressed yourself. Not necessarily in what you were wearing. We all wore the same thing, which made it really easy. Today, when I think of new guard, I think of wearing anything outside the box, the whole self expression thing, the heels, the garters, the girdles, all of that. It’s taken me a long, long, long time to accept it. It’s only been recent that I’ve said, “Okay.” It took a while.
PG:	So question, for that dress code and that part of protocol, who specified that?
GT:	There was a group in San Francisco at that point called the Leather Daddies, which is why we were the Leather Boys. They hung out at the Eagle, and they were lining up at the Eagle at the top, and pretty much watched over the crowd. Since we were always perfect, they never had anything to say to us, but if someone else walked into the bar that they didn’t know or was not dressed properly, they would say something to that person.
	With us, it wasn’t even that we were told that we had to dress this way, it’s just that we did because that was the dress. The Boys all dressed the same. If you went to Mr. S and Alan Selby was there, he would tell you what you needed to wear, and you would wear it just because you were told to. There was no questions asked. It was like parents of the ’60s and ’70s. Your parent tells you to do something, you do it. Yo don’t ask a lot of questions. We were that way also. We were told what to wear, we were told how to act, we were told what to do, and that’s what we did.
PG:	And it was basically just kind of the older community members that were like, “Hey, you need to do this,” and that message kind of came from, it sounds, not only the Leather Daddies, but also people in the stores and the community at large.
GT:	Oh, absolutely. Back then, you didn’t walk into a bar and be a Leather Man. You went into the bar or the party or wherever you were going and you had to keep going until someone realized you were there. All this time, they are watching you to see who you are and what you’re about. Then at some point, you feel acceptance. Someone would say something to you, but it wasn’t this open door policy. You could go in, but you weren’t considered part of until the group accepted you.
PG:	And part of that was kind of the honoring and respecting of protocols that are played out at large and just also showing up and participating in this community?
GT:	That’s a great way to put it, showing up and participating. You had to show up and participate before you were even accepted. Earlier, I talked about leather not being the starting point. It was the ending point. Before you even put any of this on, they had to accept you and realize you were there and work with you and see what you were about before you even put on any leather.
PG:	So were there other … you mentioned the dress code that they have. Were there other parts of protocol that were kind of outlined for you?
GT:	Yes, definitely. There were a few Leather Daddies who were a bit more instructional than others. They all had their role. Alan Selby, who owned Mr. S at the time … in fact, Alan Selby is Mr. S, that’s what the S stands for. He was like your nice grandad. He always had something to say, he’d always pick you up when you’re down. That was his role.
	At the opposite end of the spectrum was Daddy Philip Turner, who was more of the disciplinarian. He knew everything that you did before you did. I was working at Brush Creek Media at the time. It was common for Daddy Philip to call me and say, “I need you here at noon to have lunch with me.” I’d walk in and he’d say, “I heard you did such and such last night, and you will never do that again.” That was the end of that conversation.
	He kept a close reign on the Boys. There were a couple of us who didn’t get along at all, and his rule was, “I don’t care if you love each other or not. When you are in public, I want everyone to think you’re brothers.” That’s the way it was. There was none of that talking about people and reading people and all of that that they do today. We kept our business pretty much to ourselves. The Leather Daddies made sure of that. So we kept everything in-house so the outside world didn’t see our bullshit.
PG:	It sounds like the difference between a public persona and a private persona, where …
GT:	Yeah, if you were out in public and you were a Leather Boy, and even the Leather Men at that time, you were expected to behave in a certain way and you were expected to be dignified and respectable. If you weren’t, you were out. That was pretty much the rule.
PG:	The question in my head kind of bluntly, what happened?
GT:	What do you mean?
PG:	How did we get here now, I guess, where it’s much more of a free for all, self expression? In your mind, how did we transfer a highly structured community to more that is self expressive and that doesn’t have as much rules?
GT:	I think that unfortunately the thing that brought us together and made us work together as a unit, regardless of personality, was the AIDS crisis. Especially here in San Francisco, because we were hit really hard, really fast. We knew early on that we had to take care of one another. As people passed away or got sick or moved away, the rest of us were taking care of those people, because they were our family and friends. So while we were doing that, the younger people who were coming up didn’t have my generation to look after them. So they stopped being leather focused. So as we got older and started dying off or losing interest, the younger people then started to create their own kinks and their own way of expressing themselves. And they had the internet, so they could all talk to each other and create their own identities. We didn’t have that. I’m glad that we didn’t, because I really loved the rules.
	But because the generations of today didn’t have those, they look at BDSM as an self expression. We did not. So I think that that’s what happened. Now, it’s all self expression. People can wear whatever they want and it’s like, “Oh good, girl, good for you.” We didn’t say, “Oh good, girl, good for you.” We’d say, “You need to take that off right now and don’t ever put it on again.”
PG:	All right. So you talked a little bit about BDSM, but what aspects of kink do you feel you’ve mastered and have in your wheelhouse?
GT:	You know, when it comes to BDSM and kink, my belief is that you don’t ever master it. You can have it in your wheelhouse, but it’s always developing, and you’re always getting better, you’re always learning something new.
	My favorite things to do, which changes because I’ll always see something different that I like better, but I love wax play. I played with wax as a very, very young child. I loved to stick my fingers in candle wax. Then I started pouring it on my arms and that sort of thing. So wax play brings me back to my childhood. I think it’s beautiful and it’s fun to do. So that’s the thing I love the most.
	But when I comes to masculinity, I love combat. I love fighting. I’m a black kid, and I grew up in San Mateo and I fought a lot as a child, because that was my neighborhood. So I love that. I love punching and hitting and wrestling and combat. So any type of contact play really gets my juices flowing, because I want to win, and I want to hit harder. I want to be hit harder. I love that aspect of it.
	So you get the beauty of wax play on one side, and then I just want us to beat the hell out of each other on the other end of it. When I look at flogging and stuff, I get bored with it really quickly, because I want to put that down and just hit you in the head with my hand.
PG:	Just get into it.
GT:	Exactly. I want my hands to get dirty. So yeah, that’s it. I want my hands dirty. I want the spit and the blood and the sweat and all of that all over me. So that’s pretty much my funk. Then of course, you know, I can always do bondage and all that stuff, but I get bored really, really, really fast. In fact, I’ve tried to do a bondage scene probably about two months ago, and 15 minutes into it, all I could think about was stopping.
PG:	That’s not a good sign.
GT:	That’s not a good sign at all. When you start watching the clock and thinking, “Oh good, I’ve been at this for 15 minutes, now I can stop now,” it’s not good. I want to get dirty. I love being dirty.
PG:	Excellent. A lot of times with kink and S&M, we talk about that extreme physical play, where you’re pushing people past their limits. How important is that to you in your sexual play?
GT:	I love people pushing people past their limits, because I think we never know what we’re able to do until someone pushes us to do it. You can always coax that out of somebody with just a little bit more and little bit more. Even when I’ve been bottoming and been single tailed, there’s that point where you don’t want it to stop. Your endorphins are going, your adrenaline’s going, everything’s happening. You don’t know you’re bleeding. So you just want a little bit more. I love it when the person I’m playing with is having that experience, where they just want a little bit more. Then it’s up to the top to know when you’re in that danger zone, but that’s my role as the top to say, “Okay, we need to slow this down now,” because I know where you are, and I love where you are, but now it’s time to reel it in. So yeah, I always want to coax a little bit more out of the person.
	One of things that I didn’t mention, because it’s so misunderstood, is race play. I love race play, but I love it in more of a historical aspect. I’m not your banjee boy in a gang someplace. I’m going to be that runaway slave who captures you and now it’s time for me to beat the hell out of you. That’s where my mind goes. I love putting that aspect into my play.
PG:	Talking about race, given the representation when you look at the mainstream of leather, it’s mostly white dudes. How do you feel race impacts aspects of leather play?
GT:	My feeling race play or even being a black man who is kinky, you can’t help but look at me and know that I’m black. That’s going to come into my play at some point. You can’t get away from it. I find it insulting when people act like they don’t know that I’m black or that that’s part of my play. It’s going to be. So as a black man, I’m going to emphasize that in some way, shape, or form. If I’m punching someone, and I’m punching someone who’s not black, then I want to see those bruises on his body, on his pale white skin. That’s why I’m hitting him the way I’m hitting him. If I’m playing with someone who’s black or another person of color, I’m going to bring the fact that I’m black into it because that’s who I am, that’s how I learned to fight, as a black man. I’m not going to take that out of my play. So all of my play encompasses that. That’s my upbringing, that’s who I am. So it’s always there as far as I’m concerned.
PG:	So what I’m hearing is that with the intense play, with all of the BDSM, you come to it as who you are and your race isn’t something that you can just be like, “Oh, I’m going to set this aside.” This is part of who you are as an erotic person.
GT:	Absolutely. I grew up in a neighborhood where I knew everyone from kindergarten up. It was an all black neighborhood. In that neighborhood, me being black was crucial and central to my being. That’s why I survived in that neighborhood. Me being physical, me being a man, me being able to defend myself and others in my family, was crucial to my survival. I bring all of that to my BDSM, because that’s who I am, that’s how I learn, that’s how I grew up. BDSM is an extension of all of that.
PG:	Then in terms of … do you have any experience with substance use during play? What’s your stance on that?
GT:	I personally … I smoke pot, but I didn’t learn to play with substance when I was learning. So realistically, it’s very foreign to me. I’m thankful for that. I know that it enters into play in some aspects for other people, but not me, because that’s not who I am. I don’t even know how to play with someone who’s under substance abuse or is under the influence, I should say. My belief is that my intoxication and the other person’s intoxication comes from our play. We get high on each other and our endorphins are going and all of that energy comes from our play. My feeling is if there are other substances involved, then I don’t know if it’s me or the substance that they’re using. I want it to be me. I’m too vain to give it over to a substance. So it’s got to be me. I want to be able to connect with them. I want to look into their eyes as we’re playing and know that we are connected.
PG:	Then that connection is through your own physical experiences as opposed to riding a similar chemical experience.
GT:	Exactly, exactly. Because I’ve not ridden those kinds of chemical experiences, I wouldn’t know how to ride them, and I don’t want to know. I love the feeling of playing with a man, especially for the first time, and feeling that connection, of feeling myself getting aroused, getting hard, of wanting to spit on him and slap him and kiss him, and do all of those things that I want to do. It’s all encompassed. I believe that BDSM is making love. Every time I do it, we are making love, and we are going to make love hard.
PG:	Excellent. Where do you see the leather kink community going from here?
GT:	Okay, so this is my belief and my opinion, and realistically, my hope. I see the BDSM community splintering off at this point in history. There are going to be those who can cross over lines. I think I’m one of those people who can cross lines that way. But I think the people who are most kinky, who are dark, who want to do some serious BDSM playing, I think they’re going to go into a different direction. They’re going to go back underground, back into the dungeons, because we’re missing that aspect of that. That’s how we learned, and that’s what drew us to it, that darkness, that discovery, realizing who we are at those moments. We’re going to splinter off.
	I think the people who are more in the title holder community and who basically like the feel of leather and all of that are going to go into a different direction. That’s okay. They’re people who look good in pink leather … well, not really. There are people who believe they look good in pink leather and neon colors. Then there are the people who self identify, there are people who are binary, the trans men, the people who play with that aspect of themselves. I think that they’re going to cross lines also, but I don’t think that those things are going to mix all that often. I think you’re going to have to choose what to be at what particular time in your life.
PG:	But a bit more of a division between the aesthetic and philanthropic portions of the community and more of going after the physical, intense, sexual experiences, those kind of diverging.
GT:	Oh, absolutely. I think that’s happening now. There are more underground play parties of smaller group of like minded men happening than people realize. I talk to people all the time who are shocked that I’m going to a play party that they know nothing about. I get to those play parties and it’s like 20 of my closest friends. We all play, and we fuck each other, and we love each other, and we do all of that, and then we go home. We could never invite someone who appreciates the aesthetic of it, because they wouldn’t necessarily know how to behave in that atmosphere. That’s what we want. We want our own atmosphere. We want to set our own rules and our own limits, which means there are no rules and no limits. We know how to take care of ourselves and each other as opposed to the dungeons where there are lots of rules and lots of limits, and people are worried about abuse and toxic masculinity and all of that. That doesn’t exist in my spaces, because we’re all there for that reason. We love our toxic masculinity at that time. So I think people are splintering off and deciding what works best for them.
PG:	Having those play spaces where people can go dark and people can explore the aggression parts of things and play with … it sounded like one of the things that you really enjoy is that you have a history of growing up as a black kid, needing to defend yourself and learning how to fight and being able to take that as an adult and say, “Hey, this is something I enjoy and can play with erotically.” As men, we can explore the different aspects of masculinity that can get us in trouble in polite society with each other and doing that in a way where we trust each other, because we know each other.
GT:	That’s an important point. We trust each other because we know each other. We know how each other play. We know what we’re going to do. Most people who are in the dungeons that I’m in know exactly what their limits are, they know how to push those limits, and were comfortable doing so. We can pretty much do whatever we want, because it’s our party, as opposed to a play space where someone might be offended or that sort of thing. There are people who like that safety, but I’m not one of those people. I don’t want to be safe. I don’t want the person I’m playing with to feel safe. I’m not in this to be safe, I’m in this to explore and push limits and see what I can do.
PG:	Thank you for that. That’s all of my list of questions, so I just wanted to thank you again for sitting down with me and letting me pick your brain.
GT:	Oh sure. It’s a lot of fun. Good luck with this. I know that some of the things that I say offend a lot of people, and that’s okay. They’re not playing with me anyway.
PG:	Thank you so much.
GT:	You’re welcome.